Trollbloods Mk3 Dojo

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Weefsat
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Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:16 am

Trollbloods Mk3 Dojo

Post by Weefsat » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:41 pm

After spending a fair amount of time considering Mk3 and even playing a game I decided to do one of these threads myself.

List 1:
Step 1: Choosing a warlock

When making 2 lists I always try to make the first list general enough to play against most matchups in the meta. Sadly it's a bit early to say what exactly the meta will be, but I made the assumption that there will in general be a lot of armor and boxes, just based off the jack buffs. To counteract this I decided that my first warlock should be one that has a damage buff, preferably direct like PGrissel but at the very least indirect like Doomy 1 in Dissolution. The possible choices I considered were Grim 2, Ragnor, Grissel 1, Doomy 1, Calandra and Madrak 2.

Out of those, I eliminated Ragnor first. The +2 strength on one model doesn't seem to be enough of a damage buff to me in the new meta and I don't think there will be enough heavy shooting to make earth's sanctuary worth it. I decided to come back to him later if it turns out I was wrong about that.

Second, I eliminated EGrim. He supports a ranged heavy list with his feat and that is not what I'm looking for in my first list. Bombers seem to still be quite good but removing one heavy a turn from range just doesn't seem to be enough in Mk3 to neuter the opponent before he closes in. It's possible that there is some specific list that gives him a reasonable amount of punch both in melee and at range but I couldn't think of one so I decided he wouldn't be good for my first pick.

Third, I eliminated Calandra. She seems to be quite good and the single round damage buff of feat plus fate-blessed might actually turn out to be enough. If lists indeed become extremely jack heavy star-crossed goes up in value as a lot of jacks are stuck at mat 6/7, making it dubious for them to hit even def 12 without boosting under it. However that is only if lists indeed fill up with jacks. I couldn't really think of a list with her that handles the more regular 3 jack + tarpit setup. She's benched for now.

Fourth I eliminated Doomy 1. I think he might be the best choice out of all but his entire spell list and playstyle are too reactive for me to just start with him. He still deserves an honorable mention.

This left me with Madrak 2 and Grissel 1. Both can buff damage decently and they seemed to me to be fairly close in power. Ultimately I decided to take Madrak 2 as I'm far more comfortable with him (I've never played Grissel 1 before) and I really love the new design direction they took with him.

Step 2: Assessing Warlock strengths and weaknesses


I always pick the warlock first when building a list. Before choosing any other models I always ask myself the following question. a) What roles does the warlock fulfill by himself , b) What strengths does he make stronger, c) What are his weaknesses.

a) There are three capabilities you get simply by picking Madrak 2 (that's a lot more than usual I might add). First, he is nearly unkillable. His defensive stats are some of the best in the game and coupled with Grim Salvation you need to put almost no effort in protecting him. All I need to put in the list are some varied warrior models and possibly a beast to transfer to. Models I would use anyway. Second, he provides great light infantry clearing thanks to the feat. Any half decent melee model will become a blender with him and even if you don't have one Madrak can just clean house himself. This means that I don't really need to think about adding models that will dejam as he naturally does that himself. Third, he provides innate pathfinder to beasts through his field marshall. This allows me the possibility (but not necessity) of not including the Axer even if I play him with melee beasts.

b) There are 2 main enhancers Madrak has. Most importantly, Blood Fury makes any infantry he takes hit a lot harder. This provides him with natural armor cracking as even krielstone bearers can be a lategame threat to jacks. This is the reason I picked him in the first place. I necessarily need to pick some melee infantry to take advantage of this ability though. Second, he provides both threat extension and versatility through warpath. I wouldn't make specific model choices because of it as all beasts can make use of it. Ranged beasts can use it to run away after shooting while melee beasts can use it to access two clumps of infantry that are standing apart or to reach a high priority target. Overall it's just a strong, versatile ability.

c) Madrak 2s main Weakness is that he cannot protect his army in any reasonable way. Additionally he has no way to get them the opponent fast (warpath doesn't really work well for this in my opinion). His army needs to be built in a way that will shore up that weakness, either through taking very fast models or very tanky models that can make it into melee with the opponent by themselves.

Step 3: Building the list

So here is my thinking on the individual model choices and how the list came together.

First I put in the KSB+UA. This is my start for every single list except for Jarl (and I always lose with him anyway). The unit is just too strong not to include and the UA provides too much versatility through both added strength and immunity to continuous effects (that one time I denied Kovaas a charge with the third aura was nice too.). With Madrak 2 they also serve as Grim Salvation targets against an assassination attack. I don't feel paying 3 extra points for 2 more models is worth it now after the cost increase so I just go with the min unit.

Second thing I put in the list is a full unit of Fennblades with UA and a fellcaller. The Fennblades simply check out on everything I pointed out above. They are fast enough to threaten almost all light infantry units and all heavy infantry I can think of. Vengeance can stop your opponent from shooting them for a turn. Once they get into melee they are a formidable threat. They get mat 8 from the fellcaller since their pathfinder is inbuilt in no quarter and between cleave and blood fury they can threaten any combination of models in the game. They are a prime unit for Maddy 2 and Fell caller turns them up a lot. The fell caller is great all around both as support and as a combat solo. I don't feel I have to give a detailed explanation for him. He also help the one man Maddy army dream, where Madrak clears an entire army by himself.

The main thing I need to figure out at this point is the battlegroup. I want something that can take on heavy armor lists so I know that I need melee beasts. I'm not taking gargantuans as they don't benefit from Madrak 2 at all so I'm left with Mulg, Rok, Mauler, EBDT, and an assortment of light beasts. From those I feel that the best combination is Mulg and Mauler. I feel Rok does not add enough in this list for the added point cost and EBDT+lights just do not have enough damage output for my purposes. Mulg can take advantage of his reach during the feat and mauler is there to provide a damage buff.

At this point I have 35 points left and I'm quite satisfied with the core of my list so I took a look at what I'm still missing. My first thought was that I had nothing to get rid of high priority solos with. This turned out to be quite important in most of my games so I took an Impaler and the Totem Hunter to handle the issue, while hoping that Madrak might get some use out of the impaler animus any now and then as well. After playing a game against Baffo I realised that in Mk3 most power solos got nerfed quite hard making the Totem Hunter quite a bit weaker. I decided to replace both models with Dozer and Smigg for my next list incarnation. He will still let me take out one pesky solo a turn fairly reliably, but also has more melee capability for the new tankier meta.

For the last 17 points I initally chose warders. They protect the fennblade captain, my beasts and Madrak from most sorts of sinping, while still being formidable melee threats with battle rage. I think that the 5 shield guaads fit the list really well and I don't regret taking them, but I'm still considering swapping them out for a full unit of champs if it turns out that the lsit does not have enough armor cracking.

Step 4: Final Result

Madrak 2 103

Mulg 19
Dozer 18
Mauler 15
Fennblades+UA 20
Champs/Warders 17
min KSB+UA 9
Fellcaller 5

I'm quite pleased with the list and am looking forward to try it with the changes I made.
Last edited by Weefsat on Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Weefsat
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Re: Trollbloods Mk3 Dojo

Post by Weefsat » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:30 pm

List 2:

Step 1: Choosing a warlock

The point of the second list is to shore up any weak matchups the first list might have. The main weaknesses the Madrak list has are heavy shooting that can destroy the list before it engages (i.e Ossyan) and heavy melee denial that just stops Madrak in his tracks and then slowly destroys him through several turns (i.e old Denny 1, not sure if new one is still as good after changing the speed debuff rules).

I considered many different warlocks before, but after Baffo told me about the Gunnbjorn feat change (I didn't notice it for a long time) he became a clear winner in my eyes. His feat stops all ranged damage for a turn and makes magic attacks a fair bit more difficult to hit. On top of this he can play well with ranged models and I think need some of those so my lists are not too one sided. These two combined shore up exactly what Madrak doesn't do well.

Step 2: Assessing warlock strengths and weaknesses:

a) What roles does the warlock fill by himself: First, he denies ranged damage for a turn making him formidable against ranged armies no matter what army you take. Second, he has a strong ranged attack that you can use to either kill solos/UAs or put dents in jacks while threatening to crit and mess up an entire formation.

b) What strengths does he make stronger: He makes your ranged beasts a lot more fury efficient through guided fire. For me guided fire almost guarantees a ranged battlegroup. Second, he has snipe. Snipe is strong if used on any ranged model even on Gunnbjorn himself. You will most likely want at least 1 more snipe target next to him so you can hotswap it. Overall both of these mean that he ranged battlegroups get quite a lot stronger at shooting down both light and heavy targets.

c) Weaknesses: If your enemy closes in on you Gunnbjorn will not in any way help you deal with his models. The list either needs to completely stop your opponent from coming close (possibly by shooting everything dead) or has to have models that can take care of things that come close. I opted for the second route.

Step 3: Building the list

Again I put in the min KSB+UA first. They add some damage when the opponent closes in and are in general just too strong not to include for the same reasons as above.

Second thing I look for are the ranged battlegroup models as Gunnbjorn supports them very well. My possibilities are GK, Dozer, Bomber, Blitzer and Lights. Glacier king was the first real consideration. He is by no means a weak model but in the end I decided that he warps the list around himself too much leaving me with little choice on what I can put in the list or do. I believe ranged light beasts are too much of a fury burden for what they bring to Gunnbjorn so they were the second option that was excluded. Out of what was left I decided to pick a Bomber and Dozer as they seem stronger than the Blitzer to me especially when played together. The Dozer animus lets you snipe crucial models very reliably and is cheap enough to spam around now. The battlegroup can also destroy any low armor swarms with their 4 artillerist AOEs. A Bomber works both as a strong assassination threat (2 fully boosted rat 7 pow 16 shots from 17 inches away, then a fully boosted pow 14 from Gunnbjorn and possibly even a Dozer shot if it hits.) and as a tool to put big dents into heavies if needed.

Initially I was thinking of putting another Bomber in the list but decided against it for two reasons. It's simply too much of a fury burden for Gunnbjorn and it does not provide the list with enough melee damage output. Instead I decided to put Rok in. He is formidable in melee himself and provides primal to the other two beasts which makes them strong enough to look threatening. On top of this he even has a spray that benefits from guided fire. On a sidenote, if you look at the lsit carefully you will notice that it can actually use killshot quite well which was a pleasant surprise to me.

At this point I have a satisfactory core to the list and am left with 36 points. There are two main weaknesses that I'm noticing. It still does not have enough tools in melee if my opponent actually closes in and it has nothing that can protect my battlegroup from charges. I couldn't find a way to shore up both of those weaknesses well at once so I decided to take sort of a middleground. I included a full unit of champs with Skaldi. They are not exactly the unit that you want to take the charge but they are also not the worst. They most likely won't be hit by light infantry because of the shooting capabilities of the list and heavy infantry and jacks should find their high defense annoying especially when they are standing behind a wall. If they manage to survive they can handle any combination of combat stats in melee so they shore up the first weakness perfectly.

From the last 14 points I will almost certainly include whelps for fury management, but I'm still not completely sure about the last 10 points. At the moment I'm thinking about one of the following possibilities. Either I take a min unit of warders to stop charges and/or annyoing ranged attacks. Min units are not all that strong usually, this choice mostly depends on how much value I can get from shield guard. Alternatively I take two 5 point solos out of the following 3. Fell caller, Champion Hero, Alten Ashley. Fell caller is solid all around but champs don't necessarily need him. Champion Hero gives them retaliatory strike and helps with melee clearing, but this is just adding to what I already have and I'm not sure if I need more of the same role. I would probably always pick Alten Ashley if I knew I was playing Hordes all the time but I suspect we're going to be seeing a lot more Warmachine and jacks, where he is pretty useless.

Step 4: Final Result


Gunnbjorn 103

Dozer 18
Bomber 19
Rok 21
min KSB+UA 9
Champs + UA 22
Whelps 4
Champ hero+Alten ashley/min Warders 10

I will have to test the list in various configurations to decide how to round it off. Sadly I don't think I can do it against Khador with this list so I might have to wait until someone aside from Baffo decides to play Mk3.

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J_S
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Re: Trollbloods Mk3 Dojo

Post by J_S » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:36 pm

Seems legit. Dozer in the Madrak list seems a bit wierd but I can see your reasoning for it.

Madrak2 also seems like the best warlock in Trolls at first glance - having massive infantry shred + hard hitting potential plus being almost unkillable (ANY ATTACK SHUNTED WITHIN 3" WTF) is all around excellent. On top of that with Warpath and Relentless Charge, he supports beasts by doing nothing.

I should make one of these for PoM. It'll be terrible.

S'tan
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Re: Trollbloods Mk3 Dojo

Post by S'tan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:51 am

What happened to Doomy2?

Also, which matchups do you see playing these lists into?

Weefsat
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Re: Trollbloods Mk3 Dojo

Post by Weefsat » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:17 am

Doomy 2 was in my list pairing next to Madrak when I first made my lists. I was considering 2 lists with him. One was:

Doomy2 102
Rok 21
Mulg 19
Mauler 15
Axer 10
KSB+UA 9
Whelps 4
24 points left for something that stops charges a bit and maybe some miscelaneous support maybe:
Fennblades+UA 20
Janissa 4

This list looked somewhat ok, it had decent infantry clear with overtake, wild agression and rok, it had a fair amount of damage between the 3 heavies and the damage buffing animi, it had fair natural threat ranges because of feat. I had 2 problems with it though. I didn't feel that I could clear a jamming unit and then still get the alpha, and in the list can't really survive well without the alpha now that our tanking got crushed. If skew lists with no infantry jam become popular this wouldn't be an issue anymore and I could even swap the fennblades+janissa out for another beast and maybe more whelps. The other problem was that it had the same bad matchup against melee denial that Madrak did so it did not really make a complementary pairing.

My second try at the list was:

Doomy2 102
Rok 21
Bomber 19
Dozer 18
Mulg 19
Axer 10
KSB+UA 9
Whelps 4
Gobbers 2

In some way I liked this list better. First it had at least some shooting which gave me at least a chance to do something when the opponent locks my melee down for a turn. Second, it had better infantry clear because of said shooting. I found it problematic that there was nothing to shield my beasts from a charge, but I was hoping I could handle the light tarpits and outthreat the heavy stuff (it also looks like it will have crazy fury management issues but let leave that aside untill I test it). I had the list with me when I went to play with Baffo, but chose to play Madrak first. When the game ended he told me about the change to the Gunnbjorn feat and I instantly felt that Gunnbjorn would be a better list pairing for Madrak than the list I had. I might find out I'm wrong, at which point Doomy 2 will be one of the first warlocks I consider to swap in. For now however he's just too close to Madrak in what he covers and I'm not willing to swap Madrak out for him just yet.

As for what the above 2 lists are meant to cover. As I said, the first is meant against heavy armor and most (but not all) infantry spams. The second is meant against everything else which I assume is mostly going to be shooting lists. I'm ok with just deciding what list archetypes I'm playing them against as I'm not sure what each faction will bring. But if I had to guess I would say the faction matchup are likely to go like this:
Madrak 2: Khador, Circle, Menoth, Minions, Mercs, Skorne, Convergence, Trolls
Gunnbjorn: Legion, Cygnar, Cryx, Ret

But yeah, that's wild speculation I'm more or less just building lists against archetypes for the moment.

Weefsat
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Re: Trollbloods Mk3 Dojo

Post by Weefsat » Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:18 am

I've played a couple games since initially posting the dojo and I think it's time to rethink the lists and make some revisions. In general I'm satisfied with both lists. Madrak seems quite strong all around and you can't really do too badly with him. Gunnbjorn feat is strong even against combined arms lists, as disabling even 50% of your opponents army for a turn is backbreaking (the cover against magic attacks and steady help too). Eventually I want to test Calandra, Doomy 2, Grim 2, Borka 1 and possibly Doomy 1. However I want to refine and play my current list combination for at least a couple more games so I can make a better call about what works and what doesn't when I try other warlocks.

List 1: Madrak 2 changes

There are two very distinct problems with this list that I noticed in all games I played with it:

1. It's very predictable. If you're allowed to do what you want to you are extremely strong, maybe even the best (as was chronicled in the forum post S'tan linked on skype some time ago). The problem however is that once your opponent saw the trick once (and most everyone at WTC will) the counterplay is obvious. You just keep large army clumps out of threat ranges and piece trade slowly, preferably with ranged attacks. This leads into the second list problem.

2. The threat ranges are too low. 12" isn't an awful threat range for a heavy beast, especially if you consider that you can use overtake+berserk to extend it in a lot of cases. The problem is that once your opponent knows about it even a 13 inch threat range can screw you over completely because of premeasuring. Being outthreated is a death sentence for this melee list as Madrak 2 doesn't offer enough defensive capabilities to survive a proper alpha strike.

So how do I go about fixing these problems?

First I need to decide where I will free up the points I need. After some considerations I decided that the least important thing in this list is Mulg. Reach is not nearly as valuable compared to 1" reach as it was compared to 0.5" reach and having it on only one attack doesn't help him either. The most important thing I noticed was that he simply never gets to priority targets because of the above mentioned problems. He was consistently the lowest value model in my games. Removing Mulg of course leaves me lacking damage a bit. To fix this I decided to swap the warders I initially used for champs. Combined with blood fury I believe my army should output enough damage even without the 18 pow that the Mulg club brings (tbh I can't even remember using it once).

This free up 19 points. The initial instinct is to put in an axer and some support (Baffo suggested a min unit of bushwhackers which honestly isn't a bad idea). However I believe that this kind of thinking is a trap. Even if you rush your beasts and get to your opponent you won't be able to put the mauler animus on them and their pow 16-17 attacks won't crack any heavies. Additionally this does nothing to really help the first problem of predictability. I'm keeping this solution in the back of my mind, but I have two alternatives that I want to try before it.

a) Maddy 2 103
Bomber 19
Dozer 18
Mauler 15
min KSB+UA 9
Fennblades + UA 20
Champs 17
Fell caller 5

Basically swapping Mulg for a Bomber. The melee threat ranges on my beasts are still low, but since most of my battlegroup can just shoot instead, it makes my battle plan a lot more flexible. The three AOEs plus a possible sniped Madrak axe are not exactly the pinacle of ranged game, but they should offer just enough to keep your opponent pressured even when you can't charge him. It also makes the melee denial matchups a bit more bearable (I think the list still loses against ranged heavy lists most of the time, but I have Gunnbjorn as a very strong counter to that and I double commited to him when I dropped warders from Madrak 2).

b) Maddy 2 103
Blitzer 16
Dozer 18
Mauler 15
min KSB+UA 9
Fennblades + UA 20
Champs 17
Fell Caller 5
Lanyssa Rysll 3

Yup, I can't believe I'm actually considering using a Blitzer either,... with Madrak 2 no less. I think Blitzer was a very bad beast in the last edition and I felt like got a net nerf in this one. The bulldozer animus is worse than the push he had before and he costs a point more than a Mauler which baffled me (considering his animus, pow and fury are worse, they should at least have the same cost). However thinking about the list and what he needs this could turn out to actually be a better choice. Let's compare this version to the Bomber version. The most important thing the Blitzer brings with him is Lanyssa.

Lanyssa gives out a free charge, which is basically an extra attack for any charging beast. On top of this she makes my threat range a respectable 14 inches, something that few other lists have and offers the threat extension to Madrak 2 as well as the beasts. This is more important than it seems at first glance. If you leave a light infantry unit within 11 inches of Madrak atm you will most likely lose it and fill him up with fury, if there is a heavy within 3 inches of any of those models you're highly likely to lose it as well (not to mention warlocks) and Madrak will still have enough fury left over to tank most anything that tries to kill him afterwards. Now think of this threat bubble extending to 13 inches. Considering how far up you can safely play Madrak 2 against most lists (though not Butcher 3) this becomes extremely scary. Of course this all depends on Lanyssa surviving but I think she's still one of the best aditions I can think of to this list atm and I will keep thinking about ways to include here even if I don't go for this version of this list.

Now looking at Blitzer compared to a Bomber, a Bomber is obviously better (it does cost 3 points more). However in quite a few cases the difference is negligible. There's a lot of models that either ignore last damage or have armor too high to be affected by it. In this case the Blitzer projects roughly the same ranged threat the bomber does. He is worse against high armor targets but can still put decent dents in them with boosts. Another good point is that he is more expendable than a Bomber. With dual attack you're not afraid to buff him up and send him into a priority target while hopefully cleaning out some support in the back.

I will likely test out both of these when I come back from vacation (P.S. Should my objective change to the one that gives magic attacks to combat incorporeal and Menoth Jacks? Will have to consider that)

List 2: Gunnbjorn changes

The weakness of this list is exactly what I predicted, it has no real way to stop your opponent from engaging on your valuable targets. Now admitedly this is in large part due to me being too protective of champs who are supposed to run forward and die, unlike in most other lists. I could probably solve this problem by simply playing the same list better. Still, I feel the list might have some slack in it that I can trim off to make it even stronger.

There are two outliers in my list productivity. 1. Rok. He has certainly been a valuable model. However I feel that 21 points might be too expensive for what he's doing. As I've been using him now a mauler would do his job just as well at 15, mostly because I need to hide him quite far back to protect the buff. I don't remember using the spray once and the mauler buff would actually be better than primal in most cases that I used it thus far. By swapping those model I can save 6 points. Additionally I feel that the whelps are not absolutely necessary. I thought that I would have major fury management problems, but since Gunnbjorn very often shoots from 16 inches away he is fairly safe and can go very low on fury. The healing is still valuable but not necessary (plus they now need to be laced completely within 2 inches, nerfing their charge screwing). Taking into account the fact that the min warders were another 10 points that I didn't really feel all that strongly about I have a lot of possibilities for how to change the list.

I could upgrade the warders to max and add a Lanyssa, or I could drop the warders alltogether and add in bandits +Braylen (or other solo) for 20 points. Since I doubt anyone is reading these I'll just edit this part to include whatever exact solutions I think of when I do.

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Baffo
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Re: Trollbloods Mk3 Dojo

Post by Baffo » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:50 pm

I could upgrade the warders to max and add a Lanyssa, or I could drop the warders alltogether and add in bandits +Braylen (or other solo) for 20 points. Since I doubt anyone is reading these I'll just edit this part to include whatever exact solutions I think of when I do.
I would go for Highwaymen + Trollkin sorcerer attachment (15 + 3 pts), so you get your Magicval ranged weapons you can CRA, so you have an answer to both Incorporeal and Menoth 'No-shooting' jacks (or Wind walled casters), which frees up you objective choice:)

Weefsat
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Re: Trollbloods Mk3 Dojo

Post by Weefsat » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:21 pm

I know the forum is largely dead atm but I need to rant a bit more about this somewhere. Horgle is .... SO ..... DAMN ..... GOOD. He breaks so many rules that trolls have and I just don't see any clear weaknesses from him. I literally cannot believe he got released (Una is also bonkers, but she is trickier so its harder to say how she will turn out). So basically I just wanna do a breakdown of everything he has so I can maybe get over it.

Base stats offensive:

He has 2 attacks at mat 7 pow 12. If you hit both of them you get another pow 12 on the model you hit and everything within 2 inches of it. You also get continuous fire. This by itself doesn't take any awards, but if you do it on feat turn you can have a really strong assassination run or possibly you can kill a beast/ jack if it doesn't have too high armor. You won't be taking any strongest melee warlock awards, but you won't be sad you have him with you in the lategame (looking at you Issyria).

Base stats defensive:

14/17 is one of the better statlines for warlock/casters. If you throw in the stone, steady, fire immunity and possibly some terrain or a transfer you're going to make your opponent think twice about killing him. He is extremely survivable on his own and obnoxious against stuff like legion. Considering that the feat forces you to be quite close to the frontline and your spell list won't let you camp much this is quite important.

Utility abilities:

Burnt meat and field marshal immunity fire aren't things you would put on your warlock wishlist usually. Considering the whole package he has they are very strong bonuses and I'm very happy to see them there. His gameplan centers around setting things on fire so burnt meat is actually likely to proc, giving you an extra attack on a beast (or at least an extra damage die). The fire immunity is the best of the immunities and could in some rare cases decide the game for you. Even at its worst its still likely to prevent some damage every now and then.

Spell list:

These are the things that were not supposed to happen in trolls. Solid ground on armies that are full of tough is retarded as proven by Irusk 2. Still, this was something I was expecting would happen sometime.... not on a guy this strong though, with him it just goes overboard because of all the stupid shit he has on top of it.

The main thing I cannot even believe is inviolable resolve. There is not a single armor buff spell in trolls (even for feats there is only Grissel 2 unyielding). Once armor goes above 21 things get insanely hard to handle. You either have an exact answer or youre jsut dead in the water. And we're talking about an ARM 23 mountain king or 5 arm 23 warders that you cannot pull away from B2B (or KD) here. I don't understand how this is supposed to be ok for your opponents to play against... What happens if they can't drop the armor buff or ignore it in some way? Do they just lose...?

And its not like he gets 2 bad spells to compensate for the good ones. I think consuming flames is the best offensive AOE spell in the game(not counting hellmouth). It beats even obliteration, as auto fire and 1 fury cost less outweighs the 1 inch increase in template. Using this spell well will likely differentiate good horgle players from great ones, but even without it he is very very strong.

Last but not least we have firestarter. Menoth has to pay 17 points to get a single 4 inch fire AOE from a vanquisher. With a bomber you get 2 of those at 2 more inches of range 2 more pow and more melee capability thrown in. This ability is extremely strong any way I look at it.

The feat:

It has two real limitations, the enemy needs to be within your control and he needs to be on fire or the feat does nothing. To be fair those are some real limitations but Horgles entire kit is made to get around it. I don't think its going to be viable to use this for the alpha, but once your opponent commits into your arm 23 models you can use your feat to DEMOLISH anything he got close to you. WOrst case scenario you can use it in extreme lategame where Horgle plus whatever chaff remains can clear out your opponents heavy with it, likely winning you the attrition game. It can also facilitate a strong assassination run, since even a couple shots gets really scary if they are all fully boosted.

Meta power:

He has a lot of pure power and on top of it he has very strong list pairing potential too. Unlike most troll bricks his fire AOEs counter light infantry spam, helping you in the troll nightmare matchup. I would easily pair this guy with either Doomy 2 or Ragnor and wouldn't mind dropping Madrak 2 for him. Trolls got a lot better with this release.

What do you play with him?:

Not completely sure, but here's some ideas. I would definitely take the stone (as always) even though he might have some trouble filling it up. I would almost always include the runbearer, to help with filling the stone, but also to shoot out an extra fire AOE (that is the best spellslave offensive spell I can think of). I would strongly consider warders and MK as inviolable resolve targets. I would strongly consider a bomber, since he can shoot out 2 more 4 inch fire AOEs and breaks back during the feat turn (AND once they kill your MK you still have him as an ARM 22 beast... wtf... (and after they kill him you still have DEF 14 ARM 21 steady Horgle). Fire eaters burn things so they arent too bad, but they don't really benefit from him all that much. Still all around SOlid I suppose, but I'm not going crazy over them atm. For the rest we will see.

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Baffo
Posts: 155
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Re: Trollbloods Mk3 Dojo

Post by Baffo » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:14 am

To me this feels like a preemtive 'morale booster' for trolls so they won't be so 'butthurt' when Madrak2 gets nerfed into the ground as everybody kinda expects.
Most of the Troll comunity had time to preemptively go trough the various stages of grief for Madrak and getting ready for it by 'diversifying' their list pair (aka get used not to bring Madrak in the pair) and this new warlock slides in just nicely enough with unprecedented new spells (that nobody ever believed would end up in Trolls) to 'Make Meat Mountain Great Again!!!'
By Jannuary most of the Troll community will have already rotated Madrak out of their practice list pairs and whatever nerfs he gets will be probably received with a 'just as expected' attitude. If he doesn't get hit as hard as expected, the troll community might even be happy about it, but I think most players won't really care as much, since Meat Mountain will be bending the metagame all over again, and the other factions will be clamoring about Nerfing the new warlock!

Weefsat
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:16 am

Re: Trollbloods Mk3 Dojo

Post by Weefsat » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:29 am

I agree with what you're saying and would like to say that I think its about the same for Una/Wurmwood.

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