PoM Dojo

Steam-punk fantasy 'skirmish' igra z 28 mm modeli in večjimi roboti / zvermi namesto tankov :)

Moderators: Krokz, Baffo

S'tan
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Re: PoM Dojo

Post by S'tan » Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:48 am

I don't get this 'I don't like playing units' thing. It's one thing to play units like Gun Mages or Bloodtrackers or something where you expect them to do some work and totally another fielding TFG or mkII Zealots where you literally don't expect anything more out of them then stall your opponent's advance for a turn or (if enough survive) two. You just run them up the board and jam as much as possible, it hardly takes any time and positioning of every individual model isn't that important. Out of the lists you posted, I like these two the most:
(Kreoss 1) High Exemplar Kreoss [+29]
- Crusader [10]
- Reckoner [16]
- Redeemer [11]
- Redeemer [11]
Temple Flameguard (max) [11]
- Temple Flameguard Officer & Standard [4]
Avatar of Menoth [20]
Visgoth Juviah Rhoven & Honor Guard [9]
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord [4]
Choir of Menoth (max) [6]
Wrack [1]
Vassal Mechanik [1]
(Kreoss 3) Intercessor Kreoss [+28]
- Judicator [36]
- Crusader [10]
- Crusader [10]
Exemplar Vengers (max) [20]
Flame Bringers (max) [17]
High Exemplar Gravus [9]
Wrack [1]
pKreoss looks fairly standard and I can't see it going terribly wrong in any matchup, Kr3oss is iffier but I can see it working as well.

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J_S
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Re: PoM Dojo

Post by J_S » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:21 am

I don't get it either. It's just a feeling I have and have had for many years now (part of the reason I picked Gators). Maybe I want to believe.
I'm ok playing with those two I guess, and not having to think about lists would be welcome. Defenders Ward on TFG, run/shield guard every turn, charge or get charged, then follow up with whatever and cycle DW onto the Avatar.

Baffo, how do you feel about those lists from a captain's perspective?

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Baffo
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Re: PoM Dojo

Post by Baffo » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:50 pm

The lists look 'kinda rough cut', or rather need some synergy optimizing and tweaks:

For example, is there a specific reason for taking Avatar with Kreoss1 instead of one of the 'righteous vengence' character jacks and/or a Sanctifier?
I guess Rhoven is there to give the Reckoner Eyless sight so it can flare any target (remove stealth from a caster let say) and you have 6x Redeemer rockets afterwards, which is all fine for the 'drop and pop' assassination threat, but I get the feeling you could get a little extra synergy/threat projection with a different module instead of the Avatar...

In the Kreoss3 I can see the cav theme, but I don't really feel the battlegroup complements it properly (it doesn't feel like Kreoss3 supports Judi and 2 crusaders to any particular degree); wouldn't a Reznik, Durst or Feora2 work better as a 'psychological archetypical' threat or to augument the Judicator?

Weefsat
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Re: PoM Dojo

Post by Weefsat » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:02 pm

Is there a particular reason that there is no choir in the Kreoss 3 list?

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Baffo
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Re: PoM Dojo

Post by Baffo » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:13 pm

Oh, right, I didn't even notice the lack of choir in the 2nd list; it seems rather bad considering 56 points of your list are jacks...
The whole point of our 'Menoth' drop was to be a denial/hard to engage force, but menoth jacks without choir hymns aren't anything particularly hard to shoot/engage. My Harkevich experimental list would probably have a field day against it, likely shooting off a heavy or cav unit per turn.

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J_S
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Re: PoM Dojo

Post by J_S » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:14 pm

Because a 12/23 Avatar is stupid, mostly. Only thing he lacks is threat buffs.

I'm not particularly wed to any second list, just need something that also presents a problem since I can't rely on skill to win, only skews.

Weefsat
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Re: PoM Dojo

Post by Weefsat » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:51 pm

The really stupid part is that sacred ward denies about 95% of answers to that (debuffing or removing the upkeep with something like hex blast).

If you really want to rely on skews you might want to think of a really unexpected and original list. If you hypothetically brought something like 8 jacks it might be strong, but everyone is expecting that and preparing for it. Similar for the PKreoss drop and pop feat. Everyone knows it and most people are ready for it. To simply win through your list you will need to do some really creative thinking.

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J_S
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Re: PoM Dojo

Post by J_S » Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:20 pm

Weefsat wrote: unexpected and original list..... creative thinking.
Sorry, I thought we were talking about Warmachine here #sickburn #suckitSoles #3yearsinthemaking #whyamiusinghashtagsonaforum

More seriously, to answer/reply to previous questions:

1 - There is no Choir in the Kreoss3 list since the original list was much faster and Choir would have gotten left behind/isolated, although it changed a lot now so no spells/shooting would be good.

2 - It doesn't matter so much if the Harkevich list would destroy it - what matters (in theory) is that there are factions out there that will have problem with X list. That's the mindset of the WTC - for example, eCaine will destroy pretty much any Protectorate list, and I think Khador will also have the upper hand a lot time. So you drop PoM into Hordes, especially the ones that rely on animi and defensive debuffs more (ie. Mk2 Skorne, maybe Trolls) or more magic reliant factions like Cryx. If the opposing team to give two bad matchups to the list, then hopefully the bad matchups are bad matchups for other lists to so you've taken those off the table and gotten a win elsewhere. Skews are much more important than normal.

I do take your point about the denial force. Kreoss1 is still the lynchpin of that, it's just a matter of getting a second list that has game into things that aren't affected by Kreoss1 too much (to be fair, I don't see too many), or at least a list that scares away people.

That Testament list with 5 units of exemplar would be ideal but $$$$$$$$$. That is actually the number 1 restriction to creative lists - gotta work with what we have available, and what we have available is stuff that was good Mk2.


3 - I mostly want to play jacks because I don't want to have too many models on the table :)



My game evening for WM is cancelled this week so it gives another week of dojo for a second list.

Here is a second Durst list in progress:

(Durst 1) Anson Durst, Rock of the Faith [+28]
- Devout [9]
- Vigilant [9]
- Reckoner [16]
- Reckoner [16]
- Templar [15]
Choir of Menoth (max) [6]
The Covenant of Menoth [4]
Wrack [1]
Wrack [1]
Vassal Mechanik [1]
Vassal Mechanik [1]

TBD: 24 points


The general ideas:

1) Reckoners b2b with other jacks = DEF 14 vs living and cannot be KD. 14/19 Steady heavies seems pretty good vs Hordes.
2) Vigilant moves up with Covenant/ Devout moves with Durst / Templar can go wherever.
3) The Covenant's main use is the 10" of no magic (playing into the denial theme). Protecting it with a Vigilant/ Shield Guards and feat seems like it should last quite a while.
4) Generally high ARM everywhere is the idea. Basically I don't want low ARM anywhere outside support stuff.

Not sure what to do with 24 pts.
I don't really want more jacks since it'd be a lot to fuel. Deceleration can bring high ARM infantry like Cinerators, Vengers or even Errants/Bastions into decently survivable territory vs blasts and POW 10 guns.

Errants might be good just for zone holding in split scenarios.
Could also put in high ARM solos like Paladins or Seneschals.

S'tan
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Re: PoM Dojo

Post by S'tan » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:15 am

Or...you know...a tarpit? TFG mayhaps? :P

Some infantry clearing would also go a long way because there are always some non jacks/beasts around.

I also didn't notice lack of Choir with horse Kreoss. That is completely unacceptable! They're not too slow, you can run them first turn and even with speed 6 Judi they should easily be able to keep up. Here's a simple swap, hope it doesn't contain one unit too many:
(Kreoss 3) Intercessor Kreoss [+28]
- Judicator [36]
- Reckoner [16]
Exemplar Vengers (max) [20]
Flame Bringers (max) [17]
High Exemplar Gravus [9]
Wrack [1]
Choir of Menoth (min) [4]

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J_S
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Re: PoM Dojo

Post by J_S » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:38 am

I'd probably prefer Errants to TFG there in terms of jamming, mostly because Decelleration makes them ARM 18 vs guns/spells, mostly resilient to anti infantry POW 10s. Seneschal keeps them 18 while engaged, which is neato. Death to POW 10s.

Kreoss list has a tolerable number of models.

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