New edition of Warmachine/Hordes end of June!!!

Steam-punk fantasy 'skirmish' igra z 28 mm modeli in večjimi roboti / zvermi namesto tankov :)

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J_S
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Re: New edition of Warmachine/Hordes end of June!!!

Post by J_S » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:38 am

I was super enthusiastic about the WM Mk2 changes. Vane was the one being super doom, IIRC. Good times.
I was pretty upset with the administration and FT of Hordes Mk2 though, and really didn't like where Skorne ended up. Didn't mind so much the other factions, Circle maybe got shifted a bit too hard towards the Stalker/Gorax thing. Trolls and Legion came out alright.

Here I'm just generally underwhelmed by the whole thing.

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Baffo
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Re: New edition of Warmachine/Hordes end of June!!!

Post by Baffo » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:07 pm

Ok, sfter scanning the Khador forums I found an exploitable 'bug' in Butcher2's card:
HOMICIDAL MANIAC – If there are no models in this model’s melee
range after resolving a basic melee attack in which this model
destroyed one or more, this model can advance up to 1˝.
In the ability description there is no mention at all of the models getting killed needing to be Enemy models, meaning RAW you can make a 12+'' kongo line of mechanics or Kossites for Butcher to daisy chain trough to gain a super long advance (not a charge, so it can't be prevented by Polarity shield or other such effects) anywhere he wants for 10-ish point of sacrificial infantry (might actually use Alexia's Risen for it).

The first time I saw B2's card I was wondering why didn't PP just give him Overtake, since Homicidal Maniac is a strictly worse/more clunky version of Overtake (assuming it is limited to enemy models) and they've been trying to streamline/condense similar rules with very minor differences, so this is either a poorly worded ability that will get Errated in the first round of Errata (hopefully early July) or it is actually meant to be as written (admittedly the ability is called Homicidal maniac and fluff wise he's known for chopping up both friendlies and foes in his rampages).

At the moment I am split 50/50 between the 2 viewpoints, since it does feel like a RAW exploit, but it also does fit the fluff of the character in question...
We'll see soon enough:)

lord_blackfang
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Re: New edition of Warmachine/Hordes end of June!!!

Post by lord_blackfang » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:43 pm

J_S wrote:I was super enthusiastic about the WM Mk2 changes. Vane was the one being super doom, IIRC. Good times.
As far as I recall they rolled back half the Cryx changes, so I still consider myself having been correct at the time with the information I had.

I also found Mk2 consistently less enjoyable than Mk1 due to the tactical options removed from the core rules or rendered near meaningless (suppression through throwing, forest generation) and Mk3 is headed in the exact same direction (Push, weapon lock, reducing number of animi per faction, removal of unique abilities like Countermagic, and, of course, suppression through throwing made even more meaningless) and all of it always at the expense of the playstyle identity of the more finesse factions that get turned more and more into beatstick-lite. "Hey, dawg, enjoying your faction full of Open Fists? Well, they don't do jack shit anymore, so you're basically just stuck with a -4 P+S penalty, here, have an extra source of Primal to compensate."
Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky.
- Tom Kirby, CEO of Games Workshop, 2014 Annual Report Preamble

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J_S
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Re: New edition of Warmachine/Hordes end of June!!!

Post by J_S » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:32 pm

Appealing to my love of power attacks/open fists and their demise is a sure road to winning any argument.
Just to trigger Stan on that subject, the key points of the original page 5 (polarizing gender-sensitive language aside):
  • 1. WARMACHINE is simple. It's easy to learn, has no reference charts, no heavy arithmetic, and doesn't require constant trips to the rulebook.

    2. WARMACHINE favors the aggressor....... [in other games] Players park their soldiers behind walls like old ladies hiding from a loud noise [- that won't work in WM because you will totally lose if you do that].

    3. You're playing with power now. Don't be afraid! Few things are more satisfying than slamming your opponent's warjack into a unit of soldiers and watching them fall like bowling pins! (We call this jack bowling.) Try picking up an enemy warcaster (with a warjack, of course) and throwing it across the battlefield! It's almost more fun than you should be allowed to have with miniatures game.

    4. These warjacks radiate power! We're pouring so much metal into these things that at our current rate, we'll deplete the world of pewter by 2006.........So play like you've got a pair, or put down the metal and go find something made of plastic.
1. Ruleset is pretty complicated and takes years to get familiar with. The main difference between low level and high level players is understanding the minutia of the rules, of which there is many. I accept this isn't necessarily a bad thing.
2. Parking your caster behind a wall was a tried and true strategy throughout Mk2 and will almost certainly remain so in the new edition. Unless of course we have new terrain rules they have no unveiled yet :)
3. Power attacks *insert weekly rant*. Turns out it was indeed more fun than you should be allowed to have.
4. Looks like they did run out of metal in 2006...

I like to look at this document every now and then and reminisce about how things have changed. On the bright side, I do get to play warjacks and never have to see Circle Wolf Riders (with no coherency) again!



Baffo, I am 99% sure that this will get errata-ed by the end of the month. They reworded Homicidal Maniac as a rule and forgot to put "enemy model" in there. If they don't it's pretty much GG from the get go.

S'tan
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Re: New edition of Warmachine/Hordes end of June!!!

Post by S'tan » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:08 am

If I read this correctly Homicidal Maniac doesn't give you free attacks anymore, just a free move? So move, initial attack, move, buy an attack, rinse and repeat? That's not broken at all, although slightly inconsistent with the rest of the rules. But AFAIK WMH was always pure RAW so if that's what the card says...that's how you can play it. Just don't get too attached to it. :)

JS you forgot to quote the last 'rule' of page 5, I mostly agree with the rest, 'cept the power attack thing. Woldwardens throwing me around and then being (for all intents and purposes) unchargable by all my stuff was possibly the most negative play experience I've ever had in WMH.Then again I was a super noob back then with a very limited pool of models to draw from but still, holy crap that was bad. :D God bless shake off and difficult terrain not automatically forbidding charges. I always saw power attacks as niche, throw something in opposing caster to knock it down so you can kill it and alike, not spam them willy nilly every turn. In mk I maybe (before last 3-4 books came out) but those days are long gone. Anyone feels nostalgic about pre nerf B&W pSorsha when she could cast Wind Rush 3 times and feat has no restrictions like LoS? I'm sure some Khador players somewhere remember 3D armies (pSorsha and 3 Destroyers) fondly.

The game changed. I'd argue it evolved, for some of you it may be the exact opposite. Shame but...you can never please everyone.

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J_S
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Re: New edition of Warmachine/Hordes end of June!!!

Post by J_S » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:26 am

It's basically that you can run a conga line of troopers (dunno about the coherency rules without CMD check yet) on turn 2 and then Butcher can make his way up with berserk. It's pretty stupid.

The last line of Mk1 Page 5 was "So play like you've got a pair, or put down the metal and go find something made of plastic.", wasn't it? Literally an FU GW.

Overall Mk1->Mk2 was hugely positive.... pre Colossals. Got that disclaimer in there, or it wouldn't be me, you know?

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Baffo
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Re: New edition of Warmachine/Hordes end of June!!!

Post by Baffo » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:02 am

Homicidal maniac never gave you free attacks, just the movement part... The free attacks came from castin Ravager (= Berserk) on Butcher and whirlwinding trough any infantry.
In Mk3 Butcher2 has Berserk by default, but lost his 360 degrees auto-treshers whenever he attacks so you have a greater chance to get your daisy-chain of murder stopped by a low attack roll or Tough (since now you make each attack individually and you can't clip 2-3 models with a single berserk swing).
That said I too fully expect PP to errata the wording (still of the opinion they should just switch it to Overtake) unless they are a bit crazier than we tought and the rule is actually intended to work as worded; if so it might stay in till the next Errata cycle in January (due to massive outcry of broken OPness on the forums) so I can use it at the WTC:D
I am not holding my breath for that, but if it doesn't get re-worded I will fully exploit it at the WTC:)

S'tan
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Re: New edition of Warmachine/Hordes end of June!!!

Post by S'tan » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:36 pm

Ah I see, that makes sense then yeah. And Berserk doesn't specify enemy of course, it never did; otherwise Doom Reavers wouldn't be kililng each other and everything else in sword reach. Yep, it's 100% legit then. So Kara just got a buddy on the S tier caster bench. ^^

Weefsat
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Re: New edition of Warmachine/Hordes end of June!!!

Post by Weefsat » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:18 am

I found this Image

Looks like Ret will finally get some heavy infantry with medium bases. Not too exciting by itself, but I will quickly change my opinion if they are strong.

I also found some spoilers but they probably can't be trusted:

House Ellowuyr Swordsmen
Retribution Unit
Spd 6, Str, 6, Mat 7, Rat 4, Def 13, Arm 13, Cmd 8

Parry
Bladeshield
Cleave

Ellowuyr Greatsword
Rng 2, Pow 6, PS 12

Leader + 5 @ PC 10
Leader + 9 @ PC 15
FA 2
Small Base

House Lys Healer
Retribution Solo
Spd 6, Str 4, Mat 5, Rat 4, Def 13, Arm 13, Cmd 8

Ancient Shroud
Soul Ward
Magic Ability
(*Action) Heal [d3+1]
(*Action) Power of Faith [no knockdown/stationary]
(*Action) Purifying Aura [animus and continuous effects in command rng expire]

Can move during maintenance phase if friendly faction model was damaged in its cmd rng

PC 3
FA 2
Small Base

If true both look like quite a good addition to ret. The melee unit is quite strong at 15 points. MAT7, cleave, reach and def 15 vs shooting is exactly what you want to see in a cheap jam unit. The solo is very versatile for 3 points. I'm not sure if the no KD is an aura or targeted and whether its mode/unit. But even if it just makes Vyros 2 steady its a a fairly strong tool. The purifying aura is killer against a lot of lists. The best part is that when you get charged in the lategame she can use dark shroud to help you kill that annoying heavy/colossal. The downside is of course that she is squishy as hell but you obviously can't have everything for 3 points (this is quite damn close though, making me doubt whether the spoilers are real).


On a sidenote. Since Forward Kommander always seems to be way behind on releases here is a site you can use to build MK3 lists.

http://conflictchamber.com
Last edited by Weefsat on Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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J_S
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Re: New edition of Warmachine/Hordes end of June!!!

Post by J_S » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:32 am

Wow, nice find.

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